[PAA-Discuss] FW: [tnet] Pavlovian fashion for self-censorship.

Wed Jul 18 20:24:46 EDT 2007

I am one of those who are doing more as well and it is still not enough.  I
understand what is going on and we are losing.  Like you say most people are
just too busy to care, I know, I lost my marriage over this issue.  I agree
with you that we are trying to reach out to the extra community by
communicating with them however if come off as weak liberals that we are so
tolerant and we have to accept and support every cause imaginable, what I
call the 'gay whales issues'......Must we stand up for the gay whales?  

Can we deconstruct the concept of Zionism and how it has corrupted Judism?
Without calling me an anti-semite? Or hate-filled propaganda?  And How this
corruption has created the state of Israel which is something that should
not be?

I share your concern to educate.....that is my intent as well......my
methods are different and you are insulting to suggest that my intentions
are hate-filled.  Nothing I have presented here is hate-filled propaganda.
I suggest that you are attempting to demonize me for expressing these
thoughts. 

My intentions are to educate by confronting.........by challenging the
accepted mythology.  You and Mohammed Alatar may continue to educate the way
you want but, please allow me to find those articles/thoughts that are "in
your face" to find new possibilities.

Does everyone have to be 'nicy-nice?'

robert

-----Original Message-----
From: Alyssa Burgin [mailto:aburgin4peace at gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 6:40 PM
To: robert
Cc: Bill Crosier; discuss at paa-tx.org
Subject: Re: [PAA-Discuss] FW: [tnet] Pavlovian fashion for self-censorship.

There's nothing quite like being called a "thug."

I don't worry about my credibility, Robert. People know where I stand,
I'm well on record. One of my best friends, Mohammed Alatar, whom I
think we all respect as the producer of The Iron Wall and one of the
most eloquent voices on the subject of Israel/Palestine, would abhor
the hate-filled propaganda you've recently sent to the group. Mohammed
seeks to educate people as to the truth of what is going on in
Israel--he knows, as do I, that far too many people in THIS country,
only a small percentage of them Jews, are too busy living their
lives--paying the bills, taking the kids to schools, scraping by--to
understand what is being done in their name. He takes it as his
mission to help them learn about it. But not by issuing forth
hate-speech--that would be completely counter-productive, as he knows
full well.

Part of the problem is that your credibility is linked inextricably
with the credibility of everyone who opposes the occupation of
Palestinian lands. When people on the "other" side hear that kind of
propaganda, they close their minds and point to "our side" as being
one of hatred and intolerance. It makes it so easy to marginalize us,
all of us. Alison Weir manages to make her case against Israel and
Israel's government, propaganda arms, and lobbying scum without
demonizing Jews in general. I don't understand why reasoned people
can't do the same.

All Jews are not evil, any more than all Americans are. All Jews don't
support what goes on in Israel--many of them don't even believe it
should exist, by both biblical and moral standards (try Naturei Karta,
a Jewish group biblically opposed to the mere notion of Israel!).

Some of us ARE doing more than just writing on yahoo groups and
standing on freeways. Again, don't make generalizations.

Alyssa Burgin

On 7/18/07, robert <rgg-629 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Bill,
>
> Please stop being so concerned about my credibility and worry more about
> your own.
>
> Even though you espouse the tenants of being pro-Palestinian......... and
> criticize the US-Israeli Governments .........and think it is "just awful
> and terrible"...... and you RESENT your tax dollars going to
Israel......and
> you keep paying them........and you keep defending these racist criminal
> thugs (Israelis)by not addressing the root cause(racism and land theft) of
> this conflict.  Your memory only goes as far as last summer (me thinks).
I
> think you are missing the big picture if you think it is only a few crazy
> neocons (or ziocon) who are ruining a otherwise noble ideal of having a
> state for Jews only.  I would like to know from you right now if you think
> it is ok to support a Jewish only state?  Does the state of Israel have a
> right to exist?  Did the state of Palestine exist?  Does the US have a
right
> to exist?  Do you have a right to exist?  Does anyone have a right to
exist?
> It seems to me by what is going down right now is that the only ones who
do
> have a right to exist is the jews in Israel.  Who is dying?......who has
> been illegally occupied for sixty years.  And which Israel has a right to
> exist?  Where is the border?  Don't you think its odd that Israel can
invade
> another country (Lebanon,Iraq,Jordan,Syria,Egypt,Uganda, etc) and bomb the
> hell out of them and there is not a whimper about that in the corporate
> media?  Right, here on the left, it is a terrible thing but what are we
> doing about it besides holding a few token signs out on the freeway and
> emailing eachother about these autrocities.  No Bill,  we are just as
> complicit as Leiberman,  when we allow ourselves to be intimidated by
these
> thugs calling me an anti-semite when I criticize Israel and the 'chosen
> ones' who support this criminal enterprise.
>
> Bill.........the words you have choosen to use to appeal to my/our reason
> are just too damm soft, these are uncreditable words in a time of crisis.
>
> robert
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: discuss-bounces at paa-tx.org [mailto:discuss-bounces at paa-tx.org] On
> Behalf Of Bill Crosier
> Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 1:42 PM
> To: discuss at paa-tx.org
> Subject: Re: [PAA-Discuss] FW: [tnet] Pavlovian fashion for
self-censorship.
>
> I agree with what Alyssa and Juli said, and thank them for saying it.
>
> I, like Robert and probably most people on this list, am appalled at how
the
> Israeli government treats Palestinians, and at Israel's apartheid-style
> policies and worse.  I think it's awful that the Israeli government keeps
> saying that the attacks on Palestinians are somehow defensive.  I think
it
> was a war crime that their leaders destroyed half of Lebanon, killing no
> telling how many innocent people, after two Israeli soldiers were
kidnapped,
> and it's unconscionable that our government continues to send them
military
> aid.  I think it's terrible the way that AIPAC is able to intimidate
people
> in Congress, and presidential candidates of both major parties, into going
> along with the neo-con agenda in the middle East, which includes
> unconditional military support of Israel.  And I really resent my tax
> dollars going to Israel to fund this.
>
> Israel's government's and military's actions are very much like those of
the
> US govt. and military.  But do the actions by BushCheneyCo. and our
military
> mean that all US citizens are fascist, racist, Zionist, imperialist,
> war-mongers?  No.  Some US citizens obviously are, but many of us are not.
> Similarly, do AIPAC's and Israel's actions mean that all Israelis, or all
> Jews, are fascist, racist, Zionist, imperialist, war-mongers?  I think the
> same answer applies.
>
> We need to oppose the terrible policies, and the leaders who support those
> policies, of the US govt and the Israeli govt.  But frankly, Robert, I
think
> it hurts your credibility, and the credibility of others pushing for
change,
> to send anti-Israel and anti-Jewish hate material around to all the lists
> you are on.  It looks more anti-Semitic than pro-Palestinian, and makes it
> look like you are someone who hates Jews or Israel rather than someone who
> hates the Israeli and US policies and military and economic actions.  I
know
> you care about the Palestinians and want to help them, but you don't need
to
> convince us of the injustices that are being inflicted on them by US and
> Israeli policies.  And you certainly don't need to convince us to hate
Jews
> in order to convince us that Israel's policies are wrong.
>
> Let's work on educating others about the unjust nature of our military and
> economic policies, on changing those policies, and in getting more
> reasonable people in positions of power.  Let's not work to convince
others
> that we are hateful, prejudiced people who are willing to condemn a whole
> religion or country or ethnic group because our government or another
> government is morally corrupt and does terrible things to oppress people.
>
> Bill
>
>
> At 11:02 AM -0400 7/18/07, Juli3 at aol.com wrote:
> > I was beginning to think it was just me that noticed this. If one has
> objections to Zionism or the Israeli government, that's legitimate. Hell,
> *I* object to my own government all the time, it's our right.  But all
this
> ranting against "the Jews" made me think I was on the JohnBirch newslist.
> >  I'm a Christian.  So if one starts with the "all Christians are this or
> that or belong to the KKK, or worse, are in support of the currant
> administration, or just make automatic assumptions concerning me period,
> Yeah, I get *angry* !  And I don't think it's a big mental leap to assume
> that this would be true for *most* people of any faith.
> > Guess what ?  Not all Jews are Zionist or are in agreement with the
> Israeli government.  I know this, because I actually *talk* with some.
And
> their opinions can be just as varied as ours.
> > So let's be a little more aware of the labels we choose when referring
to
> those of *any* religion, OK?
> >
> >   Peace, Juli
> >
> >
> >
> >In a message dated 7/17/2007 9:14:56 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
> aburgin4peace at gmail.com writes:
> >
> >Why is it okay to post hate speech on this group about Jews?
> >
> >We can't generalize, or make racial or other remarks based on any
> >other religion or ethnicity, but when it comes to Jews, it's a
> >free-for-all.
> >
> >As I just told Robert in a private post, you have no idea how much
> >this hurts your arguments against Zionism. These ridiculous statements
> >about how all Jews do this, or all Jews do that, are slander and b.s.
> >We would never tolerate them against African-Americans, or against
> >Muslims, or against any other groups. But we sit here in silence and
> >let these posts go by.
> >
> >No one surpasses me in my contempt for what goes on in Israel. I was
> >thrown out of a rabbi's office for my statements against Israel and
> >against Zionism. I was blackballed from several groups and shunned in
> >San Antonio for my support of Alison Weir, author/reporter of the real
> >truth in Israel/Palestine.
> >
> >But I will condemn until my dying day generalizations that are made
> >against ANY group. We are all better than that.
> >
> >Alyssa Burgin
> >
> >
>
> --
> Bill Crosier
> paa at crosierbiomed.com     713-641-4941
> Progressive Action Alliance   http://progressiveactionalliance.org/
> Fear Ends, Hope Begins...   http://kucinich.us/
>
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