Agreed. No one party or political philosophy works. It is necessary to draw from all of them.<br><br>Too bad that's not something that we have been able to do in the U.S. I think some other countries are doing a far better job of that (and everything else).<br>
<br>Alyssa Burgin<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 11:54 AM, Jessica Wilson <<a href="mailto:jlwilson684@gmail.com">jlwilson684@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Can we finally FACE THE DAMN FACTS HERE and admit that there is no ONE PERFECT PARTY OR IDEA? Pull your head out of the clouds PLEASE, you are wasting your time arguing over this, how long are we going to piddle around and bring this up??? WE ARE IN THE SAME BOAT<br>
<b style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);"><font size="6"><br>WE ARE IN THE SAME BOAT<br><br><font color="#000000"><font size="2">Each politician we elect <u>REGARDLESS OF PARTY AFFILIATION</u> needs to be subjected to <u>EXTREME SCRUTINY</u> <br>
<br><font style="color: rgb(255, 0, 0);" size="6">STOP ARGUING OVER THIS NON ISSUE ALREADY</font><br></font></font></font></b><br>- jessica<div><div></div><div class="Wj3C7c"><br><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 10:01 AM, Alyssa Burgin <<a href="mailto:aburgin4peace@gmail.com" target="_blank">aburgin4peace@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">I agree with Kris in that I have no wish whatsoever to be a libertarian. I have found, though, that the idea that we can expect, for example, that all individuals, or all corporations, will live up to some sort of moral or ethical responsibility, rather naive. I suppose I believed more in that concept when I was much younger, but it's certainly become clear--and ever more clear after almost a decade of Halliburton and KBR and Dick Cheney--that it's everybody for themselves in a loose structure that does not regulate.<br>
<br>Look at this society with regulation and without. The last eight years have brought us an utter confounding of what little regulation there was, and all of us have suffered as a result. The rich get richer, the poor get poorer, industry pollutes, the climate worsens, the natural tendency of corporatism to push for cheaper wages becomes the one drive that eclipses all.<br>
<br>I'm a communitarian, and proud of it.<br><br>Alyssa Burgin<br><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div><div></div><div>On Fri, Apr 11, 2008 at 7:16 AM, Ron and Kris Graham <<a href="mailto:graham2639@mindspring.com" target="_blank">graham2639@mindspring.com</a>> wrote:<br>
</div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"><div><div></div><div>
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<p><b><font color="black" face="Comic Sans MS" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-weight: bold;">My last word on this whole subject of libertarianism is this, Ivan: It is
a SELFISH form of government where each man, woman and child looks out for
himself or herself and to hell with everybody else. We share a common planet
and a common humanity. I adhere more to socialist principles and have no desire
whatsoever to be a libertarian. I also believe it is utter crap to believe the
privatizing nature – the Commons – is going to get individual
people to take care of their environment. </span></font></b></p>
<p><b><font color="black" face="Comic Sans MS" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-weight: bold;"> </span></font></b></p>
<p><b><font color="black" face="Comic Sans MS" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-weight: bold;">Kris</span></font></b></p>
<p><b><font color="black" face="Comic Sans MS" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: black; font-weight: bold;"> </span></font></b></p>
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<p><b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; font-weight: bold;">From:</span></font></b><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma;"> Ivan Espinosa
[mailto:<a href="mailto:ie3456@yahoo.com" target="_blank">ie3456@yahoo.com</a>] <br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Thursday, April 10, 2008
5:50 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> <a href="mailto:graham2639@mindspring.com" target="_blank">graham2639@mindspring.com</a>;
<a href="mailto:discuss@paa-tx.org" target="_blank">discuss@paa-tx.org</a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> RE: [PAA-Discuss] Climate
Reality Bites the Libertarians in the Arse</span></font></p>
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<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
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<p><font face="Verdana" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Verdana;">Kris,</span></font></p>
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<p><font face="Verdana" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Verdana;">I believe that mother nature would be better off if the
corrupt, self-seeking government buerucrats weren't in charge of our
environmental policies. China
is currently a communist country and Russia was also a commuist
country in the past. Property rights are non-existent in those countries. <b><b><font face="Verdana"><span style="font-family: Verdana;">Consequently, their
environmental standards are low and pollution levels are high.</span></font></b></b></span></font></p>
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<p><font face="Verdana" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Verdana;">If America
and the other nations mentioned above adhered to libertarian principles, the
environment would be MUCH better off.</span></font></p>
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<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
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<p><b><b><font face="Verdana" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Verdana;">Libertarians would eliminate sovereign immunity so
that victims of the country's greatest polluter -- the government -- would have
recourse. Second, libertarians would privatize our lands to save
endangered species, preserve our parks, protect our national forests, and
improve our vast cattle ranges. In addition, libertarians would couple these
powerful reforms with restitution, to prevent pollution </span></font></b></b><i><b><i><font face="Verdana"><span style="font-family: Verdana; font-weight: bold;">before</span></font></i></b></i><b><b><font face="Verdana"><span style="font-family: Verdana;"> it starts.</span></font></b></b></p>
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<p><font face="Verdana" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Verdana;">Libertarians reject the initiation of physical force as a
means to their ends. <b><b><font face="Verdana"><span style="font-family: Verdana;">Restitution is the remedy when someone harms another, takes their
property, or damages it.</span></font></b></b> While punishment is
intended to hurt the aggressor, restitution restores the victim to the fullest
extent possible. Restitution is "punishment" that fits the crime and
therefore provides a more effective deterrent.</span></font></p>
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<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
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<p><font face="Verdana" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Verdana;">For example, if your neighbors dumped garbage on your
lawn, you would expect them to clean it up. If they didn't do so when asked,
you'd call the local law enforcement. When your neighbor finally did restore
your lawn, you'd expect them to compensate you for whatever additional costs
were incurred in the enforcement of your claim. Obviously, the expense and
hassle of cleaning up your lawn far outweighs the benefits that your neighbors
might get from dumping garbage on your lawn in the first place. Thus, if they
knew that you were likely to seek restitution, your neighbors would not pollute
your property.</span></font></p>
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<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
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<p><b><b><font face="Verdana" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Verdana;">Environmental restoration is costly and difficult.</span></font></b></b></p>
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<p><b><b><font face="Verdana" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Verdana;">Restitution therefore becomes an incredibly onerous
punishment and the most effective deterrent known.</span></font></b></b></p>
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<p><font face="Verdana" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Verdana;">In Britain,
individuals have property rights in the rivers that run through their land. If
someone upstream pollutes the water and harms the fish, the downstream owners
don't have to wait for a bureaucratic commission to study the issue. Instead,
they immediately sue the polluters to protect their valuable property and claim
restitution for damages. As a result, would-be polluters are effectively
deterred from damaging the environment. Waterways that don't have a private
protector fare much worse.</span></font></p>
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<p><font face="Verdana" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Verdana;">Recently, there has been great concern among
environmentalists about businesses dumping toxic chemicals into the Ohio River. <b><b><font face="Verdana"><span style="font-family: Verdana;">Because the federal government claims stewardship
of this waterway, individuals have NO ownership rights on which to base a suit.
They must wait until bureaucrats decide to take action.</span></font></b></b>
If the businesses contribute to the campaign chests of powerful politicians,
nothing may ever happen, even if local authorities are truly protective of the
environment.</span></font></p>
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<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
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<p><font face="Verdana" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Verdana;">Even when the government does decide to move against a
corporate polluter, restitution is seldom required. Instead, the business
usually pays a fine. Sometimes the fine is small enough that the business finds
it cheaper to pollute and pay. Private owners would not willing to let
their property polluted for a small sum, because the decrease in property value
would be a devastating financial blow.</span></font></p>
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<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
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<p><font face="Verdana" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Verdana;">Even ocean beds can be protected from pollution when
private ownership of fishing rights is coupled with restitution. In some
states, homesteading of oyster beds is permitted. Private oyster beds are more
prolific and profitable than public ones. The owners have incentive to invest
money in caring for the beds and harvesting them sustainably.<br>
<br>
<b><b><font face="Verdana"><span style="font-family: Verdana;">Similarly, if a
product polluted the air, victims could sue the product maker, who in turn
would pass the costs of restitution onto the consumer. Higher prices would
discourage use and decrease pollution.</span></font></b></b></span></font></p>
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<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
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<p><font face="Verdana" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Verdana;">By privitizing land and beast, bad political policy won't
be able to destroy the 40% of our nation's land and wildlife now controlled by
the federal government. Respect for private property rights is key to sound
environmental policy. After all, those who depend on the land for their health
and livelihood have the greatest incentive to keep it clean and sustainable.</span></font></p>
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<p><font face="Verdana" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Verdana;">Respectfully Yours,</span></font></p>
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<p><font face="Verdana" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: Verdana;">Ivan Espinosa</span></font></p>
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<p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"> </span></font></p>
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</div>
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<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br></div></div><font color="#888888">-- <br>Every generation has the obligation to free men's minds for a look at new worlds... to look out from a higher plateau than the last generation.<br>
<br>-- Ellison S. Onizuka<br>
</font></blockquote></div><br>