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<div class=Section1>
<h1><b><font size=4 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>Worker
Occupations And The Future Of Radical Labor<o:p></o:p></span></font></b></h1>
<p><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'>An
Interview With Noam Chomsky<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=byline><span id=date><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>November 20, 2009</span> <br>
<br>
By <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Noam Chomsky</span></b> <br>
and <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Diane Krauthamer</span></b><br>
<br>
<br>
<a href="http://www.zcommunications.org/zspace/noamchomsky">Noam Chomsky's
ZSpace Page</a> <br>
<a href="https://www.zcommunications.org/zsustainers/signup">Join ZSpace</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>This interview
was conducted on Oct. 9, 2009, at Professor Noam Chomsky's office at the
Massachusetts Institute of Technology in <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Cambridge</st1:City>,
<st1:State w:st="on">Mass.</st1:State></st1:place> <u1:p></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><em><i><font
size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>DK: I
would like to start this interview with a discussion of the economic crisis and
how workers can deal with the issues which we face. In your recent piece titled
"Crisis and Hope: Theirs and Ours," which was published in the <st1:City
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Boston</st1:place></st1:City> Review, you state
that the "the financial crisis will presumably be patched up somehow,
while leaving the institutions that created it pretty much in place."
Following on that, there has been a recent upsurge of militant industrial
action in workplaces, primarily throughout Europe, and also in <st1:place
w:st="on">North America</st1:place>. As you know, the Republic Windows and
Doors Factory in <st1:City w:st="on">Chicago</st1:City> was the first factory
occupation in the <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">U.S.</st1:place></st1:country-region>
since the 1930s.</span></font></i></em><font size=2 face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<u1:p></u1:p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>NC: No, not
quite, because the 1979 strike against U.S. Steel in <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City
w:st="on">Youngstown</st1:City>, <st1:State w:st="on">Ohio</st1:State></st1:place>
was an occupation—and actually, that's a model that really should be
pursued now. They went on from striking to trying to have the workforce and the
communities take over the abandoned factories that U.S. Steel was dismantling.
The legal effort that followed was led by the radical labor lawyer Staughton
Lynd. They didn't win in the courts, but they could have won, and they would
have had enough support. It could have meant a lot. <u1:p></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><em><i><font
size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>DK: That
leads me to my question about how workers are responding to mass layoffs. I
feel what they are aiming for are parochial gains without thinking more
long-term of how they can move towards workers' self-management.</span></font></i></em><font
size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<u1:p></u1:p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>NC: That's what
the IWW should be doing: providing that spark. You're right, it's reactive. But
the same was true of the sit-down strikes in the 1930s. I mean the reason the
sit-down strikes struck such fear in the hearts of management was that they
knew that a sit-down strike was just one step short of taking over the factory.
<u1:p></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><em><i><font
size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font></i></em><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><em><i><font
size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>DK: I
feel at the moment we're gaining numbers and we're gaining a lot of strength
and power, but the rest of the American labor movement does not perceive that
we are very serious. It is a very difficult feat to go from what we're
doing now to really being a part of the broader labor movement in the <st1:country-region
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">U.S.</st1:place></st1:country-region>, which is
important if we are to provide that spark.</span></font></i></em><font size=2
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<u1:p></u1:p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>NC: The <st1:country-region
w:st="on">U.S.</st1:country-region> is different from <st1:place w:st="on">Europe</st1:place>
and other industrial countries in this respect. The <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">U.S.</st1:place></st1:country-region> is, to a very unusual extent,
a business-run society. There are all kinds of reasons for that—it has no
feudal background, so institutions that remained in place in <st1:place w:st="on">Europe</st1:place>
did not remain in place here. There are a lot of reasons. But the fact of the
matter is that the <st1:country-region w:st="on">U.S.</st1:country-region> is
run by an unusually class-conscious, dedicated business class that has a very
violent labor history, much worse than in <st1:place w:st="on">Europe</st1:place>.
The attack on unions has been far more extreme here, and it has been much more
successful. Also, the business propaganda has been far more successful.
Anti-union propaganda has been considerably more successful here than in <st1:place
w:st="on">Europe</st1:place>, even among working people who would benefit
[from] unions. In fact, a rather striking aspect of business propaganda in the <st1:country-region
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">United States</st1:place></st1:country-region>
is the demonization of government, starting after the Second World War. <u1:p></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>The Second
World War ended with a radicalization of the population in the <st1:country-region
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">United States</st1:place></st1:country-region>
and everywhere else, and called for all kinds of things like popular takeovers,
government intervention, and worker takeovers of factories. Business propagated
a tremendous propaganda offensive. The scale surprised me when I read the
scholarship—it's enormous, and it's been very effective. There were two
major targets: one is unions, the other is democracy. Well, [to them] democracy
means getting people to regard government as an alien force that's robbing them
and oppressing them, not as their government. In a democracy it would be your
government. For example, in a democracy the day when you pay your taxes, April
15, would be a day of celebration, because you're getting together to provide
resources for the programs you decided on. In the <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region
w:st="on">United States</st1:country-region></st1:place>, it's a day of
mourning because this alien force—the government—is coming to rob
you of your hard-earned money. That's the general attitude, and it's a
tremendous victory for the opponents of democracy, and, of course, any
privileged sector is going to hate democracy. You can see it in the healthcare
debate. <u1:p></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>The majority of
the population thinks that if the government runs healthcare, they're going to
take away your freedom. At the same time, the public favors a national
healthcare program. The contradiction is somehow unresolved. In the case of the
business propaganda, it's particularly ironic because while business wants the
population to hate the government, they want the population to love the government.
Namely, they're in favor of a very powerful state which works in their
interest. So you have to love that government, but hate the government that
might work in your interest and that you could control. That's an interesting
propaganda task, but it's been carried out very well. You can see it in the
worship of Reagan, which portrays him as somebody who saved us from government.
Actually he was an apostle of big government. Government grew under Reagan. He
was the strongest opponent of free markets in the post-war history among
presidents. But it doesn't matter what the reality is; they concocted an image
that you worship. It's hard to achieve that, especially in a free society, but
it's been done, and that's the kind of thing that activists in the IWW have to
work against, right on the shop floor. It's not so simple, but it's been done
before. <u1:p></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><em><i><font
size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font></i></em><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><em><i><font
size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>DK: You
mentioned that business is very class conscious. Can you elaborate on that
statement?</span></font></i></em><font size=2 face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<u1:p></u1:p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>NC: Well, all
you have to do is read the business literature. In the 1930s they were very
frightened and they were concerned about how the rising power of the masses was
hazardous to industrialists. They used straight Marxist rhetoric—just the
values were changed. The literature is like that—they are constantly talking
about the masses, the danger they pose, and how to control them. They
understand what they're doing, and they're very class conscious. They press
policies which work for their interests. For example, the insurance industries
and the big banks are absolutely euphoric now—on the business pages they
don't even conceal it—because they've succeeded in coming out of the
crisis even stronger than they were before, and in a better position to lay the
basis for the next crisis. But they don't care, because they'll get bailed out
again. That's class consciousness with a vengeance. <u1:p></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><em><i><font
size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font></i></em><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><em><i><font
size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>DK: On
the topic of how businesses use propaganda. I would say now they use propaganda
more so for union-busting than they use the violent tactics. Would you agree?</span></font></i></em><font
size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<u1:p></u1:p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>NC: For a
while, after the Second World War, when there was strong support for labor,
this was done subtly. But since Reagan, it has been done openly. I mean Reagan
bitterly hated unions and wanted them destroyed. This began with the air
controllers' strike and went on from there. The Reagan administration told the
business world that they were not going to enforce the labor laws. The number
of illegal firings tripled during the Reagan years. It was at that time that
you started getting these companies that specialized in how to destroy unions.
They don't make it a secret, and they have all sorts of techniques for
management to destroy unions. Well, when <st1:City w:st="on">Clinton</st1:City>
came along, it sort of moderated a little bit, but <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">Clinton</st1:place></st1:City> had a different device for breaking
unions called NAFTA [North America Free Trade Agreement]. Because the
government was entirely lawless, employers could exploit NAFTA to threaten
union organizers with transfer. It's illegal, but when you've got a lawless
government, it doesn't matter if it's illegal. I think the number of union
drives blocked increased by about 50 percent. Part of the NAFTA legislation
required studies of labor practices, and there was quite a good study that came
out by a labor historian on the use of NAFTA to undermine and destroy unions.
Well, that was going on in the <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Clinton</st1:place></st1:City>
years, then, of course Bush...who we don't need to even talk about. But
starting with Regan it became quite open, the attack on unions. It wasn't the
Pinkertons anymore, but it was just not applying the laws. <u1:p></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><em><i><font
size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font></i></em><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><em><i><font
size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>DK:
We're seeing that very much in the IWW, especially in the Starbucks Workers
Union, whereby Starbucks will put out all kinds of anti-union propaganda both
internally, within the company, and externally. A lot of what they do is tell
workers that they don't need a union.</span></font></i></em><font size=2
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<u1:p></u1:p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>NC: They're
better off without it, that's the Whole Foods line. <u1:p></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><em><i><font
size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font></i></em><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><em><i><font
size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>DK:
Right, they use the line of Corporate Social Responsibility, and a lot of it is
very effective.</span></font></i></em><font size=2 face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<u1:p></u1:p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>NC: It is. <u1:p></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><em><i><font
size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font></i></em><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><em><i><font
size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>DK: So
how could we, as a small, independent labor union, work to fight against that
kind of propaganda? </span></font></i></em><o:p></o:p></p>
<u1:p></u1:p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>NC: You've just
got to get people organized and tell them the truth. There aren't any magic
tricks to it. You know, sometimes it's pretty amazing. Actually, I mentioned a
pretty striking case of this in "Crisis and Hope," which was the
Caterpillar case in the early 1990s. Caterpillar was quite important because
that was the first manufacturing industry that used Reaganite strike-breaking techniques.
They illegally called in scabs to break a major strike. It was reported pretty
well in the <em><i><font face=Verdana><span style='font-family:Verdana'>Chicago
Tribune</span></font></i></em>, who pointed out something very interesting.
They said that the workers got very little support in Peoria when scabs
illegally broke the strike, and that was particularly striking because that
whole community had been built up by the union—it was a union-based
community. But when it came to the crunch, the community itself didn't support
the union. Now that's kind of interesting about Obama, because Obama was
supposedly a community organizer in <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Chicago</st1:place></st1:City>
at that time. Now I'm sure he read the <em><i><font face=Verdana><span
style='font-family:Verdana'>Chicago Tribune</span></font></i></em>, so he knew
about it, but when he went to show his solidarity with the workforce, the first
place he went was Caterpillar. I don't think he's forgotten, and the labor
movement didn't react. Even radical labor historians didn't remember. It was
only 15 years ago, after all, but that's a real triumph of propaganda in many
ways. <u1:p></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>It's a lot of
work to reconstruct a strong labor offensive, but it's happened before. I mean
in the 1920s the labor movement was almost completely destroyed. Well, in the
1930s it really revived and became pretty radical. Things can happen, but not
by themselves. I mean, then you had the Communist Party, who was right at the
heart of civil rights activism and labor activism and so on, but something else
has to provide it. You don't want to have their <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">Russia</st1:place></st1:country-region> worship, but domestically
they had a pretty good record. I can remember it pretty well from childhood,
because my family was mostly union people. <u1:p></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><em><i><font
size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font></i></em><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><em><i><font
size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>DK: Your
father was in the IWW, right?</span></font></i></em><font size=2 face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<u1:p></u1:p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>NC: He was in
the IWW... but do you want to know the truth? [laughs] <u1:p></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><em><i><font
size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>DK: Yes
I do. </span></font></i></em><o:p></o:p></p>
<u1:p></u1:p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>NC: He came
over as an immigrant and didn't know any English. He went to work at a sweat
shop in <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Baltimore</st1:place></st1:City>.
He told me later that this guy was coming around, and the guy seemed to be for
the workers, so he signed up. It turned out that guy was an IWW organizer
[laughs]. My father didn't regret signing up; he just really didn't know what
was going on. <u1:p></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><em><i><font
size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font></i></em><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><em><i><font
size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>DK: What
industry was he in?</span></font></i></em><font size=2 face=Verdana><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'> </span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<u1:p></u1:p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>NC: I don't
even know if I ever knew [laughing]—some sweatshop in <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place
w:st="on">Baltimore</st1:place></st1:City>. I knew with my other
relatives—some of the women were in the International Ladies' Garment
Workers' <st1:place w:st="on">Union</st1:place><font color=red><span
style='color:red'> </span></font>and men were shop boys and things like that. I
happened to be in <st1:City w:st="on">Philadelphia</st1:City>, but the family
was in <st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">New York</st1:place></st1:State>.
I could see what the union was doing for them. It really saved their lives. I
had two spinster aunts who were seamstresses, and of course unemployed in the 1930s,
but the union gave them a life. They had a couple of weeks in the country for a
union installation and they had educational programs and all sorts of things.
There was a life, you know, a real community. And they were members of the
Communist Party—they didn't care one way or another about <st1:country-region
w:st="on">Russia</st1:country-region>, they just cared about the <st1:country-region
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">United States</st1:place></st1:country-region>.
<u1:p></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><em><i><font
size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font></i></em><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><em><i><font
size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>DK: On
that note, I'm also looking to think ahead with what's in the future for the
labor movement and the IWW. More generally, if you had one piece of
advice to offer future generations of Wobblies—especially in light of the
tough financial times that we are facing and will probably continue to face for
a long time in the Western world—what would it be? </span></font></i></em><o:p></o:p></p>
<u1:p></u1:p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>NC: Well, I get
a lot of letters from people. When I go home tonight I'll have 15 letters today
from mostly young kids who don't like what's going on and want to do something
about it, and [they ask me] if I can give them some advice as to what they
should do, or can I tell them what to read or something. It doesn't work like
that. I mean, everything depends very much on who you are, what your values
are, what your commitments are, what circumstances you live in and what options
you're willing to undertake, and that determines what you ought to be doing.
There are some very general ideas that people can keep in mind; they're kind of
truisms. It's only worth mentioning them because they're always denied. <u1:p></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>First of all,
don't believe anything you hear from power systems. So if Obama or the boss or
the newspapers or anyone else tells you they're doing this, that, or the other
thing, dismiss it or assume the opposite is true, which it often is. You have
to rely on yourself and your associates—gifts don't come from above;
you're going to win them, or you won't have them, and you win by struggle, and
that requires understanding and serious analysis of the options and the
circumstances, and then you can do a lot. So take right now, for example, there
is a right-wing populist uprising. It's very common, even on the left, to just
ridicule them, but that's not the right reaction. If you look at those people
and listen to them on talk radio, these are people with real grievances. I
listen to talk radio a lot and it's kind of interesting. If you can sort of
suspend your knowledge of the world and just enter into the world of the people
who are calling in, you can understand them. I've never seen a study, but my
sense is that these are people who feel really aggrieved. These people think,
"I've done everything right all my life, I'm a god-fearing Christian, I'm
white, I'm male, I've worked hard, and I carry a gun. I do everything I'm
supposed to do. And I'm getting shafted." And in fact they are getting
shafted. For 30 years their wages have stagnated or declined, the social conditions
have worsened, the children are going crazy, there are no schools, there's
nothing, so somebody must be doing something to them, and they want to know who
it is. Well Rush Limbaugh has answered - it's the rich liberals who own the
banks and run the government, and of course run the media, and they don't care
about you—they just want to give everything away to illegal immigrants
and gays and communists and so on. <u1:p></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>Well, you know,
the reaction we should be having to them is not ridicule, but rather
self-criticism. Why aren't we organizing them? I mean, we are the ones that
ought to be organizing them, not Rush Limbaugh. There are historical analogs,
which are not exact, of course, but are close enough to be worrisome. This is a
whiff of early Nazi Germany. Hitler was appealing to groups with similar
grievances, and giving them crazy answers, but at least they were answers;
these groups weren't getting them anywhere else. It was the Jews and the
Bolsheviks [that were the problem]. <u1:p></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>I mean, the
liberal democrats aren't going to tell the average American, "Yeah, you're
being shafted because of the policies that we've established over the years
that we're maintaining now." That's not going to be an answer. And they're
not getting answers from the left. So, there's an internal coherence and logic
to what they get from Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, and the rest of these guys. And
they sound very convincing, they're very self-confident, and they have an
answer to everything—a crazy answer, but it's an answer. And it's our
fault if that goes on. So one thing to be done is don't ridicule these people,
join them, and talk about their real grievances and give them a sensible
answer, like, "Take over your factories." <u1:p></u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><font size=2
face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><em><i><font
size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'><u1:p> </u1:p></span></font></i></em><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=msonospacing style='margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><em><i><font
size=2 face=Verdana><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Verdana'>This
interview was edited for length and clarity. To listen to the full interview,
please email <a href="mailto:iw@iww.org"><font size=3 color="#006699"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:#006699'>iw@iww.org</span></font></a> or visit
http://www.authoritysmashers.wordpress.com. Thanks to <st1:Street w:st="on"><st1:address
w:st="on">Charngchi Way</st1:address></st1:Street> and the Authority Smashing
Hour radio show. </span></font></i></em><o:p></o:p></p>
<u1:p></u1:p>
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